Tim McVeigh has faded from view, and he wasn’t of much use to the left anyway. Can’t pin Oklahoma City on the Christians, since he was an avowed atheist. It just didn't fit the narrative: The Rush Limbaugh right deplored and condemned the bombing and cheered McVeigh's death. We believe in the rule of law after all; killing people and destroying things is not only inhumane, it's very unconservative.
Back in January, the shooting of Gabriel Giffords re-energized lefty excitement. They were all over that story like ants on a log, only to see the narrative again wilt under the harsh facts that the shooter was a dope smoking leftist who had never heard of Sarah Palin and who also happened to be an atheist.
At first, the Norway mass murder looked like the work of Muslim terrorists. Any time something goes boom in the civilized world, there's a better than 95% chance an angry Islamist is behind it, and no sooner was the news out than the Islamic Death Cultists cheered the event and tried to take credit for it. Even as the facts emerged, it still seemed there could be a Muslim connection. This is the continent where World Bankers are brought low by devout Muslim prostitutes working as hotel maids after all. But no, it was a self-described neonazi Christian whose anti-Muslim plan was to get his countrymen on his side by killing a hundred of them.
Tea Partiers, Brace Yourselves
The left will use the popular media to continue to make excuses for every act of Muslim violence, while blaming everyone to the right of Barack Obama for every act of horror great or small committed by any non-Muslim of European descent. The left that takes pains to separate the millions of good Muslims from the scant few who commit violence will gleefully lump conservative in with the neonazis and violent rightwing extremists, although we have nothing in common.
So do your homework now, and every time an uninformed moron opens his yap to repeat the latest daily kook trope or MSNBC poison gas propaganda attack, shove it back in their faces. Ask them to show you where Jesus advocated shooting children and blowing up buildings. Make them explain how Rush Limbaugh and Sarah Palin have blood on their hands. Bottom line is they can't.
Probably the best thing you can do is explain how the Norwegian has perverted Christianity and does not represent all Christians. Libs should understand the argument. They've been making it for years in excusing violent Islamic extremism.
Atlantic - Why The European Right Can't be Blamed
Inside the Mind of the Oslo Murderer
Douthat - A Rightwing Monster
Guardian - Not Christian but Anti-Islam
NY Times - Norway Attacks
Fox - Norway Suspect
WSJ - Norway Gunman
55 comments:
No Silverfiddle, we’re all too busy trying to fathom how people can write that it’s actually all the fault of the left that Breivik is a mass murdering right wing extremist, or insist the Norwegian police are lying and it’s actually a jihadist who did this, on the grounds that Breivik doesn’t look manly enough to have a gun.
That’s the kind of shit I’ve been wading through.
What's funny, Silver, is that the sentiment you've expressed here is exactly the sentiment of all the peace-loving Muslims on the planet. Only a fraction of the billion-odd Muslims on the planet are violent extremists, and whenever terrorists blow something up they, too, say "why are you blaming all of us?"
And as for your "gay slaying," comment, gay slayings aren't all that uncommon here. It wasn't but a year or two ago that a gay guy was tied to the back of a truck and dragged until dead.
You're right that it would be ridiculous to blame every right wing person for the actions of psychotic weirdoes, but it's just as wrong to blame the whole of other groups for the actions of their psychotic weirdoes.
Really? I haven't seen any of that, but I'm not doubting you that it's out there.
Here in the US, smarmy news readers at CNN and MSNBC are already wrapping up news stories by commenting that this is a wake up call that Christians blow up cities and kill people too.
@ Jack: And as for your "gay slaying," comment, gay slayings aren't all that uncommon here. It wasn't but a year or two ago that a gay guy was tied to the back of a truck and dragged until dead.
What knee-jerk reflex causes these apologetic "We do bad things here to" spasms?
Are you seriously even attempting to compare the Western world's gay rights record to that of the Muslim world? Seriously?
For all the benefits that religions bring, it is useful to reflect that thoughtless zeal is dangerous in any flavour.
I might suggest to Chesterton that it is maybe just as dangerous, in our ignorance, to rebuild a half-collapsed wall as it is to tear it down. One of the reasons that the West has a gay rights record better than the Muslims' (which is still nothing to be proud of, by the way, and if raising that point annoys you then good: I just hope you're more annoyed that it can be raised -- don't shoot the messenger) is that the medieval zeal which leads to crusade and inquisition has cooled faster in the West than in the Islamic world.
Seems obvious that it's a good thing that we think twice when we read in our bible about eg. the blood-thirsty excesses of the early Israelite nation. We have let the wall crumble somewhat and fall into disrepair, and we should think twice about rebuilding it good and strong.
Although Muslims have worked hard to corner the market on insanity, they haven't been able to eliminate all competition.
Turns out that this Breivik character wasn't a Christian: (WorldNetDaily):
"Yet, while McVeigh rejected God altogether, Breivik writes in his manifesto that he is not religious, has doubts about God's existence, does not pray, but does assert the primacy of Europe's "Christian culture" as well as his own pagan Nordic culture.
Breivik instead hails Charles Darwin..."
This won't stop Napolitano from continuing to paint patriotic Christian Americans as the main threat to America. They have been trying to cast Patriots as evil since the creation of DHS. They've floated trial balloon after trial balloon on this concept, only to be slapped down.
Don't believe me? Watch DHS' latest video on the Stasi "See something say something" video where the vast majority of actors playing terrorist are not Muslims but suburbanite Americans.
Those in power fear patriotic Americans more than anything else, even radical Muslims. They will do anything to demonize them.
It is difficult to justify a police state on the basis of a few Muslims. If, however, you can cause suspicion about tens of millions of Americans you can justify roadside VIPER checkpoints, warrantless searches, ect.
Read more: Terrorist proclaimed himself 'Darwinian,' not 'Christian' http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=325765#ixzz1T7jPkqeR
Jez: No doubt. There are few absolutes in this world, so much of our measurements of human activity involve comparing this against that.
Nothing is perfect, not just in the realm of gay rights, but human rights and civil liberties as well.
I'm merely lamenting this banal knee-jerk "we do it too" reaction every time a Muslim act of violence is mentioned.
The genuinely devout Christian (a great rarity, believe me!) focuses first on learning how to recognize his or her own faults and failings, and then works sedulously to overcome them in hopes of improving his own character and performance. The true Christian does not point his finger at others and blame them for anything that may be lacking in his own life, neither does he blame society. He takes responsibility for himself.
Leftists, of course, most of whom are atheists, think and act just the opposite way. They rarely look inward, rarely take responsibility for their failings, rarely waste time trying to perfect themselves through prayer, contemplation, and self abnegation, because thy are much too busy telling others what they need to do to and how to do it.
Leftists look outside themselves and expect others to do something to "fix" a world they see as hostile and unfairly challenging. Christians look inward and realize If it is to be, it's up to me with God's help alone.
What is "God's help" supposed to mean?
Start with the Golden Rule -- go on to the Ten Commandments. -- follow with The Sermon in the Mount. Think not how these things should apply to others, but concentrate instead, on how they apply to you.
If you do this consistently, you're on your way to becoming a better citizen better equipped to cope with the challenges sure to come your way, and better able to find inner peace, joy, and satisfaction in a world which will always be tumultuous.
JFK said, "Life is not fair."
Yes, and it's not supposed to be. All we can do to improve things is to stay positive and not let ourselves be swept away in the tides of negativism that swirl around us.
as Jesus said, "Be not overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."
And by the way, if someone who tells you a truth you may not want to hear is found to have failings and imperfections of his own, that does not stop the truth from being true.
"This is the day the Lord hath made; let us rejoice and be glad in it."
~ FreeThinke
New York Times Headline:
Killings in Norway Spotlight Anti-Muslim Thought in U.S.
But of course. One of the worst diatribes on Conservative Bloggers possible. Conecting unseen dots to the extreme.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/25/us/25debate.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha22
.
It's not banal, nor is it knee jerk, because many people try to make it sound like ONLY Muslims do these horrible things.
You've said many times Silver that Western civilization is better because we don't go around jihading and cutting people's heads off. You act as though Muslims countries are the only ones in which horrifying violence occurs, and further that it only occurs because of Islam itself.
The "we do it too," line comes up time and again because many, MANY people seem to forget that Christians are capable of just as much violence and terror as Muslims. The "we do it too," line is not meant to excuse what goes on in Muslim contries, but it's a reminder that any religion can be taken to ridiculously violent ends by extremists.
I guarantee that if America had been allowed to be a Christian theocratic dictatorship that we'd be just as violent in the name of God as theocratic Muslim countries are. You only need to look at the entirety of the history of Europe to come to that conclusion.
Imagine if the psychotic Westboro Baptists were in charge of everything.
This item came in by email last night from a net friend of longstanding. It provides an important slant on the topics we've been discussing on this and other threads, albeit from a very different angle. I posted it late on yesterday's thread, but it really belongs here, so I'm taking the liberty of reposting it:
Norway joins the rest of the West in the eclipsing of its once-Christian society
How does someone come to the conclusion that the best way to combat an ideology that produces terrorists is to become one yourself?
That's what the Norwegian man who killed over 90 people at a "liberal" camp, and some government officials in another killing in downtown Oslo, seems to have been thinking. He says he wants to "change Norwegian society." He opposes the liberal immigration policies that have allowed the Muslim subpopulation to grow, he opposes multiculturalism and the Cultural Marxism that brought it about, he opposes the jihadic policies of Islam and wants them recognized and restricted by Norwegian society. How is that going to happen by murdering people?
It seems the only way he might change Norwegian society is by making it more paranoid and less free.
Norway has been known for its freedoms, for instance that its highest officials felt free to walk around in town or ride public transportation without the need for protection. Now that may change. How will that serve the killer's objectives?
They regard their liberal immigration policies and their open door to Muslims as part of their superior notions of freedom. If they do change in reaction to this murderous event they are only going to batten down more behind such policies and enforce them with restrictions on their freedoms.
You know what's REALLY sad about all this? The freedom they are so proud of GOES BACK TO THEIR CHRISTIAN PAST. They no longer understand this and now mistakenly attribute it to their liberal policies, the policies that are allowing Islam a voice to such an extent that it may rise up and challenge whatever is left of Norway's Christian past -- because Islam is committed to taking the world for Allah and Islam is NOT a religion that promotes such freedoms as Norway has enjoyed for centuries. In nation after nation liberalism has become the handmaiden to the murderous aims of Islam.
Apparently the killer knows this and wants to bring it to the attention of the society in general. It isn't going to happen, it's only going to get worse. You don't return to a Christian society by murdering people.
The degeneration into liberalism AND the growth of Islamic influence in the West are BOTH DUE TO THE DETERIORATION OF CHRISTIANITY.
The solution is God-wrought revival. Certainly not murder."
This article may be found at:
http://watchpraystand.blogspot.com/2011/07/norway-joins-rest-of-west-in-eclipsing.html
Submitted by FreeThinke
JACK:
For Heaven's sake! The Westboro Baptists are NOT Christians. They are vicious bigots and probably insane.
You have to remember that calling yourself a Christian does not make you one. Neither does merely joining a church and sitting in a pew every Sunday.
~ FreeThinke
Jack: You're trafficking in strawmen.
I have never held Christians blameless or maintained that these kinds of things do not go on in the western world. That would be absurd.
The difference, of course, is magnitude and intensity. Few would argue that women and gays have a much easier life and more rights in the west. Also, our record of religious tolerance stands in stark contrast to that of the Muslim world.
Yes, Christianity and Judaism have a violent past, but we've progressed.
@ Jack: I guarantee that if America had been allowed to be a Christian theocratic dictatorship that we'd be just as violent in the name of God as theocratic Muslim countries are.
Unprovable assertion, but I do wholeheartedly share your relief that people like the Westboro nuts do not run the country.
Freethinker, so then shouldn't we say that these terrorists are not Muslim? Just because they say they are and claim to be following the tenets of their religion doesn't mean they're Muslims.
We could say that slavery is still a good thing and still be considered Christian, because slavery was never, at any point, abrogated in the Bible.
And Silver, of course my asseriton is unprovable, but that doesn't take any of the Truth away from it. Look at Europe's history. Hell, look at our own history. The Salem Witch Trials were a result of a theocratic society.
And I *do not* make strawman arguments.
All might do well to note that in all the stories it mentions the shooters "anti-isalm" credentials and yet, this is key now, not one muslim, mosque or moslem "community center" was involved.
It is also interesting to note that this occurred just after our own DHS put out a video practically describing the event itself.
It's the new narrative; It's not Mosley terrorism, look in the mirror - it's you!
I won't step so far off the edge as to suggest that this attack was justified, but one thing I will say is it has been a long time coming, and if things don't change you are going to see much more of it. And the longer things continue in Europe at their present rate the more difficult its going to become to offer a valid criticism of such actions.
---------------------------
That's a direct quote from a post by an individual who posts on various sites in your circle. It's a more open version of Finntann's "remember who has the guns". Yup, watch out folks, the right wing gun loons are swinging their dicks.
But what they will not do is admit that the environment they have helped create is the source of much hatred. Or since they label themselves as Christian they think that's some kind of inoculation against responsibility.
But what can go wrong with their philosophy, right?
1. The market --- It's actions are always correct so you insulate yourself from any thought there.
2. Freedom/choice --- The highest good. So long as you have choice, well nothing else matters, it's the highest good regardless of it's ends.
3. Calvinism --- Optional. Slap a little belief in partial atonement and call yourself the moral elect and you can pretty much do as you like.
It's a grand scheme. You never have to take responsibility for anything.
>The Salem Witch Trials were a result of a theocratic society.
Error: Cum hoc fallacy detected.
Please restart.
Come on Ducky,
The guy was a nut. Saying right wing thought is to blame is no different than if I were blame Atheism for what that nut did to Giffords. Some people are just plain crazy and to think that this is going to become common is not only wrong, it's offensive trying to use this to push a political agenda.
"A new promotional video released by the Department of Homeland Security characterizes white middle class Americans as the most likely terrorists, as Big Sis continues its relentless drive to cement the myth that mad bombers are hiding around every corner..."
http://www.prisonplanet.com/dhs-video-characterizes-white-americans-as-most-likely-terrorists.html
Yeah, Trestin he's a mad man. No question there.
He's distinct from the fine vulgar filth of Pam Geller, Robert Spencer, Geert Wilders and everyone else who has warned that the Muslims are here to destroy our culture. And the warning of those fine folks would be heeded if it weren't for the damn liberals. Right? Without those liberal atheists the only people who would get hurt are the Muslims and they deserve it.
Yeah, I know how it works. Everything will be fine if we leftists just follow Finntann's advice and remember who has the guns.
Are you seriously even attempting to compare the Western world's gay rights record to that of the Muslim world? Seriously?
----------
And who is responsible for that, you and your friends or the left. Or maybe in your bizarro world everyone worked together.
Tie a can on it. Gay activists beat your face in and that's the name of that tune. Yes sir, the right wing was very supportive, why over at the blog of the queen of the ladies who lunch is an inspired post supporting the rights of gays to marry. We on the left just don't realize how open minded you are.
I see conservatives getting defensive again...
JMJ
Jack,
It's only a fraction of the Muslims who practice terrorism. It is a highly significant fraction.
According to all reports there are approximately one and-a-quarter BILLION Muslims in the world. Of that huge number approximately ONE-QUARTER of a BILLION Muslims advocate terrorism as a legitimate means of spreading the faith -- and ultimately conquering the world for Allah.
You make a good point when you ask:
"[T]hen shouldn't we say that these terrorists are not Muslim? Just because they say they are and claim to be following the tenets of their religion doesn't mean they're Muslims."
All right, I thought of that, myself, as I was writing, because I have inveighed heavily against allowing Muslims to remain on our soil unchallenged and unrestricted. So in a sense you are right, but we need to consider the percentage of white people of Christian background who advocate terrorism. I doubt very much if it anywhere near the full TWENTY-PERCENT of Muslims who espouse the policy -- and God-knows-how-many-of-the-others who do so tacitly.
ONE FIFTH of all Muslims may not a majority make, but I don't think it's right to characterize it as "only a fraction," even though that is technically correct. One-fifth is, indeed, a fraction but a LARGE one.
~ FreeThinke
"I see conservatives getting defensive again..."
No, Jersey, what you see are signs of awareness that liberals are attacking their own society once again and coming down on the side of their society's sworn enemies.
And where have you been lately? Kinda missed seeing you. Even though everyone tries to sit on you, don't be a stranger. Most of us can tell your heart's in the right place -- even if we think your head's a bit screwed up.
I may think you're wrong most of the time, but I can tell you're not a hard case.
A hard case does nothing but practice Critical Theory, and never listens to anything but echoes from the Frankfurters and Saul Alinsky.
~ FreeThinke
I doubt very much if it anywhere near the full TWENTY-PERCENT of Muslims who espouse the policy -- and God-knows-how-many-of-the-others who do so tacitly.
---------
Did you take a poll?
Let us know when you want to sit at the grownups table.
How is it that all of a sudden The Black Bush gets elected and all these fringe right wingers who move their mouth when they read are suddenly experts on Alinsky?
They never read him, any more than they've read Wealth of Nations or Atlas Shrugged or their other sacred texts ... well maybe they have read Atlas Shrugged judging from their incoherence but really do you guys get a freaking FAX from Andrew Breitbart telling you to push that one?
what you see are signs of awareness that liberals are attacking their own society once again and coming down on the side of their society's sworn enemies.
--------------
Not so, but if you are a blogger who links to Pam Geller or Robert Spencer or championed friends of the EDL or Geert Wilders then they should freaking own it. That doesn't seem to be you Silverfiddle but there are plenty of those bigots in the right wing realm. Z links to nearly all of them.
Here it is in a nutshell:
It's all about the double-standard as usual.
Leftists are quick to seize on the actions of the occasional lone madman, and to ascribe motivation for a mad killing spree to Right Wing Extremism, while at the same time these leftists seize upon any rationale they can dream up to avoid identifying Major Hassan and others of his ilk for what they obviously are -- ISLAMIC terrorists.
Major Hassan got himself planted in the midst of OUR military through the practice of TAKEEYA, which I refuse to spell with Q's, because it shows capitulation to Muslim demands that we change OUR language to suit THEIR whims -- yet anther form of Muslim aggression. Until 911 it was always the Koran. As far as I am concerned it is STILL the Koran and never will be the Qu'ran. I feel the same way about Peking and Bombay and Burma.
Do the Germans demand we call their country Deutschland? Do the Italians insist we say Italia? Have the the Spaniards badgered us into calling their country Espana? NOT ON YOUR LIFE. So why should we knuckle under to Oriental and Middle Eastern pressure to change the way we refer to their countries? It's fuckin' absurd, and just one of myriad ways in which the activist left has been slowly-but-surely transforming us into something we never wanted and were never intended to be.
What do you suppose the world reaction would be if the Jews insisted that all references to them should henceforth be written in Hebrew or spoken in Yiddish -- in OUR country? How would we like it, if the UN backed that initiative?
~ FreeThinke
@ Ducky: And who is responsible for that
Gay activists, of course! I get your implication. If left up to those mean rightwingers, gays would still be in the closet, I'll grant you that.
We should also note the absence of bombings, beheadings, and executions of gays by religious fanatics.
Yes, lamentably, there are hate crimes against gays, almost as many as there are against people because of their religion.
This is still arguably the safest place for a Jewish lesbian who enjoys drawing cartoons lampooning Mohammad.
"The left will use the popular media to continue to make excuses for every act of Muslim violence"
Oh, stfu you stupid hater.
"Oh, stfu you stupid hater."
TEE HEE!
"Someone" needs to take his own sage advice very much to heart, doesn't "someone?"
Tsk tsk tsk!
~ FreeThinke
Ducky,
Apparently from what you say, you've read just about everything in depth. I congratulate you for making the effort, but wonder why, if you've understood these great tomes, you so consistently draw the wrong conclusions from the knowledge you've acquired?
I know what you are doing. You are practicing Critical Theory on us -- just trying to wear everybody down with persistent denigration and relentless negativity.
Part of that game is the attempt to put words in other peoples' minds and mouths, and act as though they've actually thought or said those things, and of course, to accuse the opposition mercilessly and relentlessly of ignorance, stupidity, shallow thinking, malice, injustice, bigotry -- you name it.
The idea is to show nothing but contempt and never give any quarter even when you realize the opposition may have a legitimate point.
It is foolish to try to meet practitioners of Critical Theory halfway, or acknowledge any merits in their arguments, because Cultural Marxists, like yourself, are not interested in building bridges, they are only interested in blowing them up.
I would never accuse you of insincerity and certainly not categorize you as 'stupid," which many make the mistake of doing. I do not think you are hateful either. I think you are a perfectly sincere, dedicated Marxist who believes he's on the right side of these issues. I also realize that if you bother to answer this post, you will tell me I haven't the faintest idea what a Marxist is, and then advise me to read up on it.
Like Jesus on the Cross, I can forgive you, because I am positive that you know not what you do. In my never humble opinion you mistake knowledge for wisdom -- always a great mistake.
Cheerio!
~ FreeThinke
>Oh, stfu you stupid hater.
Such eloquence.
Jez said:
" ... the Mediaeval zeal which leads to crusade and inquisition has cooled faster in the West than in the Islamic world."
True. And why do you suppose that is the case? Do you think it is was just by happenstance?
By the way at least one of the Crusades occurred because Christendom at the time had to defend itself against vicious Muslim aggression. Do you it would have been better if Europeans had just have rolled over and played dead? Do you believe Europe would be in better shape today, if it had meekly submitted to Conversion to Mohammedanism by the Sword?
I wonder if the USA would ever have come into being if Europe and, of course, Angleterre had fallen to Islam?
Well, perhaps the world would have been a better place if we'd all remained in the seventh century. Who knows?
One thing's for sure w wouldn't be having to put put up with Feminazis, Compassion Fascists, Gay Activism, and rampant pornography, would we?
~ FreeThinke
~
"Imagine if the psychotic Westboro Baptists were in charge of everything."
WOW! What an accurate portrayal of Islam!
Thanks.
Well, I'm late getting here. Been researching all day long today online.
A blogging friend sent me the full 1500 page "manifesto" by Breivik, but I haven't tackled it yet.
Silverfiddle, you might find this essay by Jason Pappas to be of interest. He's made some observations that I haven't seen elsewhere.
Well Silver, the situation of homosexuals in Muslim countries is quite variable.
Saudi can be the worst but it also isn't uncommon there, just stay closeted.
It is sever in very ignorant rural tribal areas such as Afghanistan or Iran (but not such a problem in Tehran).
Indonesia, no biggie. Large Muslim population states like India and China, not a major issue.
Egypt varies.
The Muslim world is not monolithic. It ain't all Saudi. I spent some time there, a real zoo but the drivers scared me the most and I'm a veteran of Boston traffic.
Freethinker, you really should accept the truth. When it comes to Muslims and Arabs, you don't know your ass from your elbow.
You sound like a real Patai type. Myself I was friends with a guy who was with OSS in the mid East during World War II and he taught me quite a bit. The culture is much different than you imagine.
I notice that Jason warns that we shouldn't allow this to divert our attention from the world's biggest problem, Islam.
Now I think that's the pure stinky cheese, myself.
Thinking about the world's big problem I was taken by a quote by Chris hedges in this month's Progressive. It's too bad the entire interview isn't online but pick up a copy at your newsstand (I'm sorry you don't live near one, Finntann).
Hedges: The purpose of bread and circuses is, as Neil Postman said in his book Amusing Ourselves to Death, to distract, to divert emotional energy towards the absurd and the trivial and the spectacle while you are ruthlessly stripped of power.
I used to wonder: Is Huxley right or is Orwell right? (Note: Me too) It turns out they’re both right. First you get the new world state and endless diversions as you are disempowered. And then, as we are watching, credit dries up, and the cheap manufactured goods of the consumer society are no longer cheap. Then you get the iron fist of Oceania, of Orwell’s 1984.
That’s precisely the process that’s happened. We have been very effectively pacified by the pernicious ideology of a consumer society that is centered on the cult of the self—an undiluted hedonism and narcissism. That has become a very effective way to divert our attention while the country is reconfigured into a kind of neofeudalism, with a rapacious oligarchic elite and an anemic government that no longer is able to intercede on behalf of citizens but cravenly serves the interests of the oligarchy itself.
Yup, meanwhile, Islam serves as a useful diversion and you can make a boatload of money in defense contracting.
Want polls Ducky? Here are your polls:
Violence against civilian targets justified: Often/Sometimes
Jordan 57%
Lebanon 39%
Pakistan 25%
Indonesia 15%
Turkey 15%
Morocco 13%
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/26/where-terrorism-finds-support-in-the-muslim-world
-----------------------------------
To exercise violence agaisnt those who are deemed by religious leaders to have insulted Islam:
Right: 13%
Sunday Telegraph/ICM
http://www.icmresearch.com/pdfs/2006_february_sunday_telegraph_muslims_poll.pdf
-----------------------------------
Attacks on Civilians in US
Approve:
Egypt 8%
Indonesia 5%
Pakistan 9%
Morroco 7%
Palest. Ter. 24%
Jordan 11%
Turkey 8%
Azerbaijan 4%
Attacks on US Troops in Iraq
Approve
Egypt 83%
Indonesia 26%
Pakistan 26%
Morocco 68%
Palest. Ter. 90%
Jordan 72%
Turkey 40%
Azerbaijan 9%
View of al Qaeda: Support its attack on Americans and share its attitudes toward the US
Egypt 21%
Indonesia 9%
Pakistan 16%
Morocco 9%
University of Maryland
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf
-----------------------------------
Lets take the low end of the polls which seems to be down around 8-10%
So...what is 10% of 1.2 - 1.5 billion?
Yeah, so a small percentage of muslims advocate violence against the west...what 100 million or so?
-----------------------------------
And since you want to harp on my dig about remember who grows your food and has the guns:
"So it’s not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."
Who's the bigot casting stereotypes there? What's this the modern view of peasants with pitchforks?
Cheers!
Ducky,
You and Chris Hedges are stealing my lines. This is exactly what I have been saying, myself, for quite a long time -- almost word for word. Has Hedges been reading my posts?
To wit:
"Hedges: The purpose of bread and circuses is, as Neil Postman said in his book Amusing Ourselves to Death, to distract, to divert emotional energy towards the absurd and the trivial and the spectacle while you are ruthlessly stripped of power.
"I used to wonder: Is Huxley right or is Orwell right? (Note: Me too) It turns out they’re both right. First you get the new world state and endless diversions as you are disempowered. And then, as we are watching, credit dries up, and the cheap manufactured goods of the consumer society are no longer cheap. Then you get the iron fist of Oceania, of Orwell’s 1984.
"That’s precisely the process that’s happened. We have been very effectively pacified by the pernicious ideology of a consumer society that is centered on the cult of the self—an undiluted hedonism and narcissism. That has become a very effective way to divert our attention while the country is reconfigured into a kind of neofeudalism, with a rapacious oligarchic elite and an anemic government that no longer is able to intercede on behalf of citizens but cravenly serves the interests of the oligarchy itself."
He's stated it almost as well as I have, so why can't we get along better?
I think I know. We see the roots of the problem a little differently. You blame the industrialists and the capitalists solely. I blame the Marxists, the Fabians, the Progressives, the aggressive proselytizing Atheists, and all that happy horse shit for changing the culture in a way that made it possible for the Merchants of Filth and Degeneracy to profit from purveying their salacious, meretricious and destructive wares.
The great irony is that both the Right AND the Left have been USED by -- I said it first -- THE OLIGARCHS.
By pitting L and R against each other so adamantly they have divided and thus conquered the country.
BRAVO, Ducky!
But I still don;t think you understand that the "Progressive" movement has been USED as just another weapon in "their" arsenal. "They" are the ultimate cynics.
Do you know who "they" are?
Does ANYONE?
~ FreeThinke
By the way, Ducky, who is Patai?
You keep saying that I resemble certain figures most of whom I do not know.
Does it not occur to you that people who try to think things out for themselves can come up with similar -- or even identical -- conclusions to those others quite independently?
It might surprise you, but I imagine very few of us whom you want to regard as political adversaries get our ideas from canned "talking points." Since most of us despise Centralized Control and Command of any kind we'd be the last to allow anyone else to tell what to think.
But you are DEFINITELY onto something Big and very very Bad with your talk of "the Oligarchs."
What's your Rx for fighting THAT?
~ FreeThinke
Finn,
Pew Research Center and The University of MD certainly share a left wing orientation. Are you sure we can trust their figures?
I wonder what Rasmussen, Marist and Gallup would report. So many poll are agenda-driven these days. The truth is getting harder and harder to identify.
ALSO, are you sure that MUSLIMS, who subscribe to TAKEEYA (lying to the Infidel to gain power advantages, etc.), can be trusted to give honest answers when pollsters come to call?
~ FreeThinke
Attacks on US Troops in Iraq
Approve
Egypt 83%
Indonesia 26%
Pakistan 26%
Morocco 68%
Palest. Ter. 90%
Jordan 72%
Turkey 40%
Azerbaijan 9%
---------------------
So if we go and occupy Iraq they are somehow terrorists if they support resistance to our invasion?
That's weaker than your post that the military's great contribution to culture is brass bands.
PITCH TILL YOU WIN.
Freethinker, Patai is the author of "The Arab Mind". I believe it was published in the mid 60's and is the standard military instructional text on the subject.
It does not have a particularly strong reputation and is the source for a lot of the common aphorisms.
It's generally glommed onto by anyone who is desperate to form a negative opinion and is to freaking lazy to read something like Hodgson's "Venture of Islam".
ROFLMAO
Ducky, High and inside.
Ducky said "Did you take a poll?
Let us know when you want to sit at the grownups table."
Well Ducky I gave you your poll, several actually... let us know when you want to pull your head out of your...
Convenient of you to ignore:
View of al Qaeda: Support its attack on Americans and share its attitudes toward the US
Egypt 21%
Indonesia 9%
Pakistan 16%
Morocco 9%
Among others.
Or are you just another Western apologist who believes everything is all our fault and if all of us evil white Europeans and Americans would just go away you could all could get back to dancing in flowery meadows with unicorns and faeries in idyllic harmony?
MILITARY CONTRIBUTION TO CULTURE?
Are you really that friggin naive?
How About: You have one, it's yours, and you get to keep it.
Would you like to specify a paticular area of culture for me to educate you on? I mean it is such a broad broad field.
How about medicine, and the US Military contributions towards the study, treatment, and cure of infectious diseases such as viral encephalitis... seem to recall you occasionally have outbreaks of that up there in Mass:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15916288
You know Ducky, you can poke fun all you want, "but pick up a copy at your newsstand (I'm sorry you don't live near one, Finntann)" you cant argue with the US Census Bureau. I lived in the semi-socialist cess-pit you call a state for nine long years, and won't be coming back despite the cultural venues, business opportunities, climate, landscape, and many other positive factors.
And it seems a lot of people agree with me:
"A majority of people who moved out of Massachusetts last year report they are very satisfied with life in their new state and would not move back, a Boston Globe poll has found."
"A litany of woes, from taxes to high cost of housing, is driving many residents out of Massachusetts, and the state is struggling to woo others to come here, report says"
"Between 2000 and 2007, only Louisiana - which saw thousands flee after Hurricane Katrina - and New York lost more residents to other states, according to the report."
"Those who left Massachusetts say they are repelled by the cold, the high price of housing, the taxes - in essence, everything from the long, traffic-clogged commutes to the deep blue hue of the state's politics."
Massachusetts percent population change 2000-2010: 3.1%
Colorado percent population change 2000-2010: 16.9%
Not to mention that Massachusetts anemic growth is supported by foreign immigration.
"Immigrants have kept the Bay State's population from declining. The state's population increased just 1.4 percent between 2000 and 2007, and there are now more than 1 million residents here who were born in another country."
The last time I was there on business in Andover, the hotel room came equipped with a pictographic card to enable communication with the staff. Says a lot, doesn't it?
BOSTON, Better than BOGOTA, can't compete with BUTTE, BILOXI, or BRECKENRIDGE.
Shall we refer to your great democratic-socialist experiment as a MASS MIGRATION?
Oh and by the way Ducky, you're somewhat behind the power curve (ball?)
7/25 Ducky said: "Hedges: The purpose of bread and circuses is, as Neil Postman said in his book Amusing Ourselves to Death, to distract, to divert emotional energy towards the absurd and the trivial and the spectacle while you are ruthlessly stripped of power."
7/14 Fintann said: "Wolin: "One other subordinate task of managed democracy is to keep the citizenry preoccupied with peripheral and/or private conditions of human life so that they fail to focus on the widespread corruption and betrayal of the public trust." In Wolin's words, "The point about disputes on such topics as the value of sexual abstinence, the role of religious charities in state-funded activities, the question of gay marriage, and the like, is that they are not framed to be resolved. Their political function is to divide the citizenry while obscuring class differences and diverting the voters' attention from the social and economic concerns of the general populace."
Or as LOLCAT said:
WE IZ IN AGREEMINTZ?
@ FinnTann: BOSTON, Better than BOGOTA,
I hate to disagree with you Finn, but I've been to Boston and I've been to Bogota, and Bogota is clearly superior. The traffic moves easier, the restaurants are much cheaper and way better, and the people are friendlier and easier to understand. Crime is about the same for both places. Stay out of the wrong neighborhoods and you'll be ok.
If you're interested in putting Boston into proper perspective, listen to this (just be sure to keep the volume at mid-level):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc5eqmucGl4&feature=related
~ FreeThinke
Let's see Finntann, your main criticism seems to be that a hotel had Hispanic Chambermaids. Not uncommon, in fact poster z, the queen of the ladies who lunch call them the "cute little immigrants you find in the service industry".
I confess, I assumed you don't have access to various periodicals because you used the old "remember who has the guns" line. Literacy isn't commonly associated with gun loons.
I'm glad the Massachusetts population is stable. Housing is expensive and there really isn't much undeveloped land. As a result homes can spike in price. Boston is so undesirable that the average condo is going for 600K.
Yeah, housing and the winters are negatives. Myself, I don't know why people get spooked by a little snow. We miss the bake off this month has been in flyover country.
Silverfddle, next time use the subway, don't drive.
Ducky, the problem is that the population isn't stable, the numbers are.
According to the Globe article I was reading only 64% of Mass is native. The article claimed something along the lines of 1.5 million moved out, 2 million moved in.
The point isn't so much that the staff were immigrants, and actually they were predominately Vietnamese, the point is I can go to Seoul or Pyongtaek and communicate with the staff in English (or my rather rusty Hangugeo), but not in Boston?
Again, do you think there is something unique in Boston about a Hispanic housekeeping staff.
I won't even go into the assumption that a single hotel is considered an adequate sample.
No immigrants in Colorado, eh? Please stop.
Do you even read? I said they were not Hispanic, were they Hispanic, I could communicate with them in Spanish.
The point isn't what nationality they were, although you seem fixated on Hispanics for some reason, but the fact that they are immigrants to the US, and don't even bother to learn English? And it's not one hotel in Massachusetts, it is many, all over New England. Do you not consider communication essential in a customer service position?
The point is, I go to Korea with no intention of ever staying there and at least make the attempt to learn enough of their language for basic communication. You immigrate here and couldn't bother? That makes sense.
Anyway, the whole point overall has nothing to do with language, it has to do with the fact that while your population is stable, natives are leaving. I'm not implying that the natives are leaving because of the immigrants, I'm implying that your state is no longer attractive to many of it's own citizens.
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